Anne: Okay, so this is Anne again.




Ivan: Hello Anne.




Anne: And I am interviewing Ivan.




Ivan: Nice to meet you Anne.




Anne: Nice to meet you. I want to thank you for coming to talk to us. I
understand that it can be painful when you tell them your story and I'm
sorry you have to go through it, but I think your story is important.




Ivan: Great. Thank you. And thank you for hearing us.




Anne: Yeah. So start from the beginning. Like when you first came to the
United States, what the circumstances were behind it, motivations, your
impressions, how old you were, all that stuff.




Ivan: Okay. So I was 13 years old when I first got to the United States. At
that time, my mom was already in the United States. She'd been living in
the United States for about two years by then. And the circumstances why we
moved to the States, just seeking better opportunities because by that
time, we didn't have like a lot, what would you say that ... Here in
Mexico, we didn't have a stable life. We didn't even have the needs, we
didn't even have a house. So my mom moved to the States and after two
years, she brought us to the States. When I first got to the States, it was
a whole new thing, different language, different people, different culture.
And not just one culture, it was a mixture. You don't only have people from
one region, it's like a lot of races, if I can put it that way.




Ivan: So I was amazed like, how could this country be like this? Because it
was so different from what I was used to. I was so surprised I had a bus
taking me to school. I was like, what, this is so cool. I was impressed by
that. And having a good meal at school, that was surprising as well. I was
like, what, I'm getting burgers every single day. That was pretty nice as
well.




Ivan: And learning a new language, that was definitely a challenge. It took
me about three years to fully understand the language. I think most of the
difficulties had, it was like I was shy. I was shy speaking another
language. I'll always think like, “Oh maybe they will not understand me.”
That's something that always kept me not moving on. Because I was always
shy. I was always afraid, but I don't know. One time, I just started
talking, that's when I started working. I was like, well, I have to
communicate. So I started not being shy anymore. And school was a really
good experience.




Anne: So did you start in high school or middle school?




Ivan: I started high school. It's funny because here I finished elementary
school and I went one year of middle school and that's when I moved to the
States. And when I moved there, all my paperwork was not ready, so I have
to wait around 12 months for me to go to school in the States because of my
paperwork. By that time I, I was 14, so I cannot go to middle school
anymore. So you can say I skipped middle school and I went straight through
to high school. That's what happened to me. And what else?




Anne: So I'll backtrack a little bit then go back to high school, because
that's really interesting. They put you ahead when you didn't even know the
language.




Ivan: Mm-hmm. (affirmative) Yeah.




Anne: But when you left at 13, was that tough to leave, had you been living
with your grandparents?




Ivan: I was living with my grandparents here in Mexico.




Anne: And your family and your friends, was that tough?




Ivan: Well for me it was not hard just because I was going with my mom, I
was going to get reunited with my mom. So I was so happy.




Anne: That’s true.




Ivan: Yeah. I missed her so much. So I was like, no, I don't like here, it
didn't interest me. Not even my grandma or grandparents. They were fine,
but I miss my mom.




Anne: And your dad, was he not in the picture?




Ivan: No. He was never in the picture. Since I was like five, six, he was
not there.




Anne: Any other siblings that you had?




Ivan: I have six siblings.




Anne: Wow. Did they all go with you to the states?




Ivan: No. But that time it was only three of us and we were born here in
Mexico. But then when she moved down to the States, she married again and
she had more. My mom had four more kids. So I would say they're like half
siblings, but they’re my siblings, I consider them like my full blood
siblings. Because I live with them, I watch them grow.




Anne: It's a full house.




Ivan: Yes.




Anne: Was family life fun in the US, was it fun or did you feel like you
had to work a lot to take care of the kids?




Ivan: Well, it was up and downs. I had to work. I had to go to school and
take care of my siblings because my mom was working all the time. So I
would go to high school but the time I went to 10th grade, I started
working, part-time. So I would go to school, work, and the weekends take
care of my siblings. But my mom managed to take us out from time to time.
So she would take a day off and just go out to the water park. And that was
new to me. Like everything in the States, everything I would go. Especially
the water park, when I went the first time, I was like, “Whatttt!”. Yeah. I
didn't know things like that, the slides. That was so incredible. So I will
say that it was up and downs. Definitely when I drove to work, I always
afraid because I might get stopped or anything.




Anne: When did you figure out, or maybe you knew from the beginning that
you were undocumented and that would put barriers on what you could do?




Ivan: Well, I knew I was undocumented, but I started realizing I was in
danger when I started driving and working. But that time I was like, I need
to be careful all the time. I'm not getting stopped or anything. When I was
in high school, all the school process, I was happy. But whenever I had to
go to work, that was like, I need to be careful. Those are the times I
realized, this is not my country. I was not born here. So if I do anything
wrong, I will be sent back.




Anne: Was school really different in the US than in Mexico?




Ivan: Yeah. So different, the school system, the education system is so
different. At least they will teach you stuff, they show they care about
you, you're learning something. Here in Mexico, it was just whatever, if
you're doing fine, you're good. If you're not, well, we don't care about
you. But in the States, I had a counselor, that was new to me. And they
always looking after me, okay, so how you doing, what do you need help
with? So school, it was pretty fun. It was a whole new experience, I
actually started learning stuff. Yeah.




Anne: What did you like in school?




Ivan: What I like, all the programs they had. I was on the Spanish club. We
made up a club for dancing and they even teach, how do you say when they
teach you to drive?




Anne: Drivers Ed?




Ivan: Yeah, that was something cool for me as well. So I would say high
school, it was the most amazing experience I had in the States.




Anne: That’s great. That’s great. Did you make lots of friends?




Ivan: Oh yeah. Definitely. That was something interesting too as well,
because the school I went to, it was mostly Afro-Americans. I would say 60%
of the high school students, it was Afro-Americans.




Anne: This was in North Carolina?




Ivan: This was North Carolina. And then let's say 30% it was Caucasians.
And then like the other 10%, it was just Mexicans, some Asians, Middle
Eastern. So we were like a minority when I first started. And I had a hard
time making friends because the only people that I would get along and
because of the language, it was Latin American people. But the Mexicans in
my school, they're all from the countryside and I was from the city. And
they think so differently. And just the fact that I like rock music, they
didn't like me. Yeah. My own people. I was like, what? And I would not be
able to talk to some other people, because I didn't know the language. So I
was alone all the time.




Ivan: I started talking more when I went to 12th grade. I started making
friends and a lot of people who like my own music and it was more so
Caucasians. So I would hang out with them and Mexicans even hate me more,
because I will hang out with the Caucasians and not with the Mexicans. But
interesting thing is by the time I graduated, it was 50% of Afro-Americans
and then 40% of Hispanics.




Anne: It changed?




Ivan: So the population grew. It was a big difference and a lot of
Caucasians moved out to different schools. It was so interesting. Like it
was a big change.


Anne: So a lot of Mexicans when they come to the States young, and
especially the young men, something happens for whatever reason and they
end up in gangs or they engage in criminal activity at young ages, 14, 15,
16 years old. That didn't happen for you?




Ivan: No.




Anne: And what do you think is the difference between you and these other
kids who ended up-




Ivan: Huh. That actually, I forget to mention. Besides these people and
Mexicans, there were gangsters in school, but I don't know, I was never
inclined to go that way. I never liked to dress like that. I never liked to
act like that. So that's probably why I never went that path and definitely
what my mom taught me. She always been a patient woman. She always taught
me to respect others. So probably that helped a lot, what my mom taught me.
And I will see these people dressing like that, acting like that, I was
never like that. So probably that's why I never went to that path.




Anne: And were your siblings similar to you?




Ivan: Yeah. I'm actually the only one who consumes alcohol from time to
time. None of my siblings, they don't do anything.




Anne: They’re pretty good.




Ivan: They're pretty good kids.




Anne: Yeah. That’s funny, that’s great. Okay, so you had a great experience
in high school and then you thought maybe college, you started community
college.




Ivan: Definitely.




Anne: And you said you got through a semester and then was that when you
got deported?




Ivan: Okay. So when I went to college, I went to a community college. The
tuition was pretty high for me. I managed the first semester, but it was
like I was…




Anne: You were out of residence.




Ivan: Yeah, it was so expensive. It was almost a triple I was paying from
the other students. I was trying, I really tried.




Anne: Was there something you wanted to study?




Ivan: Yes. I was studying photography, so I did one semester and I had to
work. And I had to pay school and I have to go to school. I managed to, to
do it the first semester, but after that it became harder. So I have to
stop going because I could not afford it anymore because I have to work,
pay rent, help my mom, because by that time, she didn't have a really good
job. So that also, it was one thing that-




Anne: So how old were you when you did get deported?




Ivan: The first time I was 19, 20. I was about to be 20 by that time.




Anne: And how did the police find you? You said you were deported for
having an illegal ID, which I guess you used to work.




Ivan: This is funny because that ID I got it in North Carolina. This ID, I
will use it anywhere, actually whenever I get stopped by the police, I will
show him this ID. I don't know, probably was a percolation from North
Carolina. They will alert you. It was not a ID from the government, but I
don't know if somehow it was the account. You can identify yourself with
that ID. And that would work fine in North Carolina. So this same ID, when
I moved down to Texas, I brought it with me. But I didn't know. I didn’t
know. I didn't even research.




Ivan: So one time I was coming from the movie theater with my friend and it
was pretty late at night because the movie ended like 12. So it was like
12:30, we were driving back home. My friend was driving, I was in the
passenger seat and then this police pulled us over and he was like, "Oh no,
it's just a checkup." They always ask for identification. So I show him
this ID and it never crossed my mind. It never crossed my mind like I will
get in trouble just for showing this ID. And they were looking, well, they
took a long time, they came back and they were like, "Where do you get this
ID?" And I told them. And there was a number in the back that they could
call, but it was so late in the night. The police was like, okay, well,
they interrogated me for a long time, asking me these questions. Well, at
the end they decided to arrest me because they didn't know if the ID was
legit or not. So I was like, oh, well what can I do? So they arrest me.




Ivan: And they started asking me questions, not related to the case.
They're asking me also, "How do you cross?" And they started asking me
these questions. I'm like, "Why do you care, is this not related to this?"
And they didn't ask me anything else. So I went to jail. And at that time
whenever you get to jail, of course, they look at you, your profile, like
“oh you're Mexican so you must not be legal.” So they contacted ICE and
that was it.




Anne: Did you try to fight the case or you did not?




Ivan: I didn't. By that time I was feeling depressed. I was like, I'm
getting deported, so might as well. I don't care. I'm just going to go
home. So I got deported just like that.




Anne: You just said, “I want to go home.” So do you think Mexico was home
then or no?




Ivan: I always thought that Mexico is my home. I always was planning to
come back. Not like that, but I always planned to come back.




Anne: So you went back after you got deported, but you didn't stay long.




Ivan: No. That time I was 19. And I had missed so much from this country. I
didn't know where to go, how to move around. I didn't know anything. So I
stayed here for three months and I tried to look for jobs. But at that time
the industry was so different. There was not a lot call centers. I didn't
know I could go to a call center because I spoke English and just get a
job. So it was hard for me. I was looking for some other options and I was
not able to get a job. So I was like, hmm, I need to go back.




Anne: Were you living with your grandparents at this point?




Ivan: At this point, yes I was with my grandparents. I was living in a
different state. But yeah, I stayed with my grandparents for three months
and trying to see if I could stay here. But I was like, nah, it's not going
to work out, so I'll have to go back.




Anne: So you crossed the border again?




Ivan: Mm-hmm (affirmative), I crossed the border again.




Anne: Was that tough?




Ivan: Yes, it was tough. I was actually lucky. Some people I heard they
spent even a month trying to cross and I crossed just within a few days.




Anne: Oh wow. So did you walk?




Ivan: This was in Tamaulipas. It was a river. I crossed the river then.




Anne: On an inter tube?




Ivan: No, it's just a river, like a floating, how do you call these things?
Just swimming.




Anne: Oh, you swam.




Ivan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I swam with some other eight people, eight
people. Just a group of eight people. We crossed the river, it wasn't that
long. Then there were some woods then we stay there for a while. And then
after the woods there was some suburbs and then there was a car waiting for
us. It was a small car. It was, do you know Neon Dodge?




Anne: Yeah, Neon Dodge.




Ivan: Neon Dodge. So it's a pretty small car. Yes. We all got into the car.
And then they took us to a house. We stayed there for the rest of the day.
When we crossed the river, it was around 10 o'clock in the morning.




Anne: Uh-huh. (affirrmative)




Ivan: And then when we got to the house, it was about 12. We stayed there
in the house already in the States. And then we stayed there until like
nine o'clock in the night. And then after that, we got into a trailer truck
in the top. There is a part in the top, I don't know how to call it, but
there's a part, there was a hole and we all got in there. And he drove us
all the way to ________ and that was it. That's how I crossed. I spent a
whole night in there laying. We all were laying.




Anne: Was it scary?




Ivan: Yeah. It was scary. It was scary especially when you get to the
checkpoint. You know they tell us, whenever you hear the truck stopping,
don't even breathe. Yeah. So it was scary, but I got the chance to cross.
The first time I crossed, I crossed with my uncle. My cousins they're like
my age and my brothers. So we crossed pretending we were his kids. That was
the first time.




Anne: Yeah. That was easier?




Ivan: That was easier, way easier.




Anne: Yeah. So where did you end up the second time? Where did you end up?




Ivan: The second time I went back to North Carolina. I stayed there. That's
when I started doing photography again. I met this friend, he was into
photography. He knew I did some photography in the past. So we got together
and I started a business doing photography.




Anne: Did you study anymore photography or-




Ivan: Yes. I kept studying, but by myself. Because I'm not going back to
college, so I did some ... By this time I realized that YouTube was really
amazing to learn whatever.




Anne: YouTube, yeah.




Ivan: YouTube, that's what I learned most of photography I know. So I
learned on YouTube. I started working with this friend and that's what I
did. I would do painting jobs, like painting houses during the week from
seven to four or five, after that I would get to home. I would do some
photoshop, editing, and on the weekends I'll go just take photographs. I
most did Quinceañeras and weddings photography.




Anne: Yeah. Is that a Hispanic tradition for children?




Ivan: Quinceañera. It's like sweet 16.




Anne: Yeah, that's what I thought.




Ivan: Yeah, Quinceañera.




Anne: At that point you felt you're doing well.




Ivan: I was. I actually was doing pretty well.




Anne: Did you have a partner then?




Ivan: Yes. Actually, I had a partner and I would work from different
companies, because the photography industry for Hispanics in North Carolina
started growing so much. First small business, they went to big companies.
They'll hire photographers and I would work some side jobs for companies.
So I was doing well. I was doing pretty well back then.




Anne: And socially, what was going on in your life?




Ivan: Socially, I have a lot of friends as well, mixture; Mexicans,
Caucasians, Afro-Americans, some Asians. I was doing pretty well. By that
time when I went back to the States doing photography and painting, I think
that was when I would say I was starting to live the American dream.




Anne: What were your dreams? You were living the American dream, but what
was that dream, what did you see yourself becoming in the future?




Ivan: Okay. Definitely I wanted to establish my company. I wanted to get to
the point that I didn't have to work, I will have people working for me.
And getting there, it was part of the dream. But my dream, it was like,
okay, have your photography business and then come back to Mexico and just
leave it there, and just making money.




Anne: So your dream was to be really successful with your photography, but
then go


back to Mexico?




Ivan: Yes.




Anne: So you always were thinking of going back?




Ivan: I always was thinking of coming back here.




Anne: So did you come back voluntarily?




Ivan: No, I got deported again.




Anne: What happened?




Ivan: In this case, I messed up. In this case I messed up. I was coming
back from a party. I was drinking and driving and I got pulled over. And
that's how I got deported the second time. I recognize that was my fault.
You should not drink and drive, but I did it and this was four years ago.




Anne: So was it a quick deportation, you came back quickly or you had to
stay detained?




Ivan: Okay. Yeah. I had to stay detained. I stayed about seven months
between county


jail and immigration.




Anne: So they gave you a jail sentence for that crime?




Ivan: Yeah. It was not at all. I made a deal, so I could go earlier.




Anne: Still, seven months.




Ivan: Still, it's a lot.




Anne: Is jail tough?




Ivan: Well, yes, it is tough. It is tough. Just being there locked up, the
whole scenario you're locked up.




Anne: Yeah. But did you have any trouble with the other inmates or
anything?




Ivan: No. Not with that, I never had any issues. I never had any issues
with inmates. No, those issues I never had. It was just being there.
Mm-hmm. (affirmative)




Anne: So you came back, did you go back to be with your grandparents again?




Ivan: At this time, at first I stayed with one of my uncles. And I found
out there were call centers so I was like, okay, let's give it a shot. So I
started working in a call center. The pay was not bad, but it wasn't that
good. So it was like, okay, I can deal with this. And at this point I was
like, nah, I'm not going back to the States. I lost, I had to sell my
photography equipment. I lost most of it. I had three cameras. I end up
just with one camera. And I tried to do photography here.




Anne: Oh you did?




Ivan: Yeah. I tried. I tried. But the photography business here, it's so
different. It's so different. I still deal with Mexican people, but it was
so different. It was so different. The culture here, most of the people who
hire photographers, they have the ways to afford it. And most of the people
here in Mexico City who have some higher or really high… they have money,
they're really bad people. I went to a few weddings here. People would
treat me like you were the worst. Yeah. Photographers here, especially who
do weddings and Quinceañeras, they get treated really bad.




Anne: Really?




Ivan: Yeah. Some people wouldn't even give me some food. Well, they will be
like, are you hungry? Not like that.




Ivan: One time I sat, because you have to be standing all day long. So you
have to sit from time to time. And I was there sitting and this person
comes to me like, "You're supposed to be taking photos," and blah, blah,
blah. So I stand up again. So I was like, no, this is not going to work for
me.




Anne: They don't look at you as an artist, they look at you as-




Ivan: Yeah, like an instrument. So yeah, that was tough. So I was like, no,
photography is not working for me. So I went to a call center and that's
kind of tough too because you have to deal with people yelling at you and
stuff.




Anne: That's why they call, they're mad.




Ivan: Yeah, because something happened they're calling. Yeah. So then I
worked at a


call center for a while until I found out about OlaCode It's something
different and a great opportunity. So I was like, let's take it.




Anne: How's it been?




Ivan: Well, we're about to graduate. We're graduating this coming Saturday.




Anne: Oh, that’s great.




Ivan: Yeah. It's been really tough. It's been really tough.




Anne: It’s hard?




Ivan: Tiring, getting all this information into your head for five months-




Anne: Hard work.




Ivan: Nonstop and it's really hard work.




Anne: Do you like the work? Do you like it?




Ivan: Oh, definitely.




Anne: Yeah.




Ivan: Everything I've done here, everything I learned, all the time I spent
here, definitely it's worth it. It's definitely worth it. So I'm really
excited.




Anne: Do you have a job or what are you doing now?




Ivan: Well, we're going to start applying after we graduate. And they're
already hiring partners out there. We already have the list and as soon as
we graduate, starting applying for jobs.




Anne: That’s great. Yeah. Congratulations.




Ivan: Thank you so much.




Anne: So what are your dreams now?




Ivan: Now, I don't know. I always wanted to have my own business. But
recently, I found another field where I can work as a photographer and it’s
not bad. It's not bad.




Anne: What kind of photography?




Ivan: Let's see here. I wanted to show you a picture. I don't have my
phone. Can I use your phone just to show you what I'm talking about?




Anne: I don't know. Do you Google?




Ivan: Yeah. Yeah. Google, let me show you.




Ivan: These are really new concept here in Mexico. Not a lot of people does
this and that's what I want to do. And I actually did it for my daughter. I
actually did this for my daughter. And I found out that a lot of people are
interested in this, which is ...let me show you. I want to find a really,
okay, this one right here. This.




Anne: Oh, okay. So it's like a baby portrait?




Ivan: Yeah. It's a baby portrait with the-




Anne: The hands and the feet.




Ivan: Yeah.




Anne: That's so cute.




Ivan: I actually did that for my, not that one-




Anne: Yeah, but similar to that.




Ivan: Similar to that. And I showed a lot of people and they were
surprised. I can definitely make a business out of that.




Anne: Definitely, definitely.




Ivan: And that kind of work, I found that the people respect you as a
photographer here in Mexico.




Anne: Yeah. Yeah, that’s important.




Ivan: So this program I'm into, Olacole, I'm feeling like it's a really
good tool for me to get what I want to get. And coding is definitely a
really good skill for me to have, for me to get to that point.




Anne: That’s great, that’s great.




Ivan: That's my dream. Still, I haven't get away from having my own
business related to photography. That's what I want to get to.




Anne: That’s wonderful, that's great. Do you think being in the United
States made you different?




Ivan: Yes.




Anne: In what ways?




Ivan: Let's see here. I will say that the United States made me… more
adaptable to any situation. Any situation I can go through, like I will
adapt to. And that's what the United States taught me, be adapt to any
situation. And what else, and socially speaking and professionally
speaking, like I became a really adaptable person. That's what I learned
from the States. And of course, the language comes with it, speaking two
languages. I think anywhere in Latin America it’s a plus. So that was it,
it made me a really adaptable person.




Anne: Just some reflections about policy for you. So what do you think US
should do differently in its treatment of migrants?




Ivan: Be more open minded. I mean, we're in 2019, that kind of thinking
like, oh, we're just a race, we don't accept you because you have a
different skin tone. I don't think that kind of thinking fits in anymore
because we're a society, we keep evolving as humans because we've been
evolving since we were first here in the Earth. And it's not just
physically, it is intellectual. Your mind just keeps growing and keeps
growing, keeps growing, keeps growing nonstop. And I think welcoming people
from another ethnic groups is part of evolution. It's going to happen one
day. Especially the government now is trying to stop it, but that is going
to happen someday. And I would say what the United States as a country
needs to do is embrace the evolution. Yeah.




Anne: We have in the past.




Ivan: What’s that?




Anne: We have in the past.




Ivan: Oh yeah. Because of that, it's such a great country, because they
have embraced these changes.




Anne: How about Mexico, what should they do to help returning migrants
reintegrate?




Ivan: In this case Mexico, they need to change the way they think. How can
I put it in words? Mexico is even, I would say, I don't know. I don't know
about that one. They tried to make changes in the past, but it hasn't
worked. The major problem here in Mexico is the corruption. It's all of
Mexico is, the way it is right now, because corruption is just with
corruption. I will say like, I don't know, I don’t know. I don't know how
to change that, how would they do that? Because every time a new president
comes in, they're like, "Okay, we're going to make a change, everything's
going to change, no more corruption." And then they get to the power and
they forget about that. They want everything for them, so I don't know how
they will change corruption in this country. Because I will say they, they
change the whole government. They make a new system, but people still going
to be corrupt. I don't know how to answer to that one. That one's tough.




Anne: Okay. We're pretty much to the end, but I was just going to let you,
if there's anything more you want to share for people who are listening to
your story, anything that you didn't get to say, anything you want to
conclude with?




Ivan: Well, first of all, I will thank you for doing this, for putting out
our stories. People definitely need to know what we been through. So they
have a bigger picture. We're not all criminals. We all have like ups and
downs because we're humans, you can not be perfect. But we're not
definitely criminals. We're humans, we're all humans, and we all feel the
same. So I would say, don't look at us as a different race, look at us as
humans because we're all humans at the end. So I would say that. That's
pretty much I have to say. And once again, thank you so much.




Anne: Well, thank you. That was great. That was great. Thank you so much.